Monotheistic religions as dictatorships… Or LIGHT of the world…
Posted on July 10, 2007
by: Dr. Jerome Pestlebottom
So, this started off as a reply to a comment I received on a posting of mine… here… but I couldn’t stop my fingers or brain from typing/thinking… So, here we go with a post! Weee!
Comments in reply to my post:
Now for some religion stuff. I’m sorry, but I have to pick apart some of your parody of religion
I, too, have issues with the concept of Original Sin. However, I have come to think of it as a description of human nature. As we struggle through life we constantly battle the competing wills of logic and emotion. What we want is often different from what we think would be best for ourselves. However, it would be wrong to assume that religion is just about supressing our desires. I think it is more about helping us identify which desires will bring us lasting joy, rathering that a fleeting happiness.
If that were the case, then Christians would be forced to believe that *everyone* goes to hell, since no one is perfect. You should remember (as should many of the Bible-thumping Christians that are causing your angst) that Christ preached to the sinners (let’s face it, one of his most devout followers was a whore). Christianity is about offering a way out of darkness, not about sending people to hell.
I wasn’t saying that people had to be “perfect” to get into heaven, but there are rules aren’t there? I can’t just piss away my life and get in, right? If I don’t accept Jesus into my heart, I go to hell, right? I must have missed something along the way sir. The Great JC preached to the sinners to try to save them from Hell, right? If they didn’t follow him, they would end up in Hell, right? Christianity says, it’s our way or the highway, and that is a dictatorship, with crazy ol’ Yahweh at the helm. I can’t allow a belief system like that to flourish and just be allowed to go on, without some form of rational thought brought to it. It’s psychological torture to tell a kid that they need to accept this magical (and might I add, rather invisible) man into their hearts, without question (for the most part), or they will suffer for all eternity after they die. Over the top? Yes. Deal with it.
Your entire argument/point rests on the simple basis that the Talmud/Torah and the New Testament (or any religious books) truly and completely describe the way the world began, is, and will end (the mind of God)… and they just do not do that, to my view at least. Religion certainly isn’t just about suppressing desires, but it does tell us (Christianity/Judaism) that women are the cause of original sin, and pretty much treats women as temptresses and worse (Read: Whores and the cause of almost all male downfalls)… Why such hatred and fear of women? The whore you reference I assume to be Mary Magdalene, and she isn’t really thought of as that anymore, to the best of my research… If you are referring to the “cast the first stone” story, I ask where was the man who should have been brought before Jesus along with the woman to be condemned? This was a necessary part of the Jewish law, that they both be brought to justice (Read: Stoned to death by stupid fucks), yet no mention of him is made… Weird… Jesus “saves” her, which is pretty cool, but that’s about it for women getting it good. JC is also a pretty big dick to his mom, which seems to go against number… uhmmm… well, whichever commandment that one about the parents is…
Back to the topic at hand though… Why is Christianity “real” to some people? Why isn’t reincarnation a possibility? Heaven and Hell are real places? Please. These books, and for the most case, all religious texts ($cientology aside here) were written by people (read: Men scared of the sun, moon, and stars) needing to understand everything around them back in the day.
You really think God has spoken to us? That he needs to speak to us? That he is a petty and jealous being who needs us to worship him in a singly appropriate way? That he will punish you for all eternity for not doing so, or doing so in a way “not appropriate”? I’m not trying to put words into your mouth, but that is what the bible says… (Isn’t it weird that the first 3 commandments all have to do with a being with quite the self-esteem issues?)
Exodus 20:2-17
- I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me.
- You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
- You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,
I came across a quote recently that I’ve quite begun to identify with… Not that I’m saying there is or isn’t a “God”… But…
I don’t know what God is, but I know what he isn’t…
Not sure who said it (I looked around), but I agree… I have no idea what God is, or if God exists… A being capable of creating this universe out of whatever it was created out of would be so far beyond what our minds are capable of imagining, that it seems ludicrous to me that a book explains what we should do with our lives based on “It”…
I will freely admit that some of the teachings of Jesus (Love thy neighbor as thyself) are brilliant and beautiful concepts, but I think a man wrote it. Matthew didn’t write Matthew. John didn’t write John. Mark didn’t write Mark. I hope you are willing to admit that the stories of Jesus were worked out about 40-50 years after the supposed death of Jesus by whatever group of men did work them out. Considering how much information gets lost in a simple game of telephone, I’m a little skeptical that stories told around camp fires were perfectly preserved for a few decades until they were written down…
Isn’t it kind of weird that a few other prophets/deities have quite the same characteristics of Jesus of Nazareth (and from quite a few centuries/millennium before Him)? Horus/Ra (3000 BC)(Egypt), Attis of Phrygia (1200 BC) (Greece), Mithra (1200 BC) (Persia), Krishna (900 BC) (India), and Dionysus (500 BC) (Greece)… All these figures fit pretty well into the life-death-rebirth cycle of Jesus, and share a few other “odd” coincidences… Now the main argument from the Catholic Church (and I don’t mean to pick on them, but they have been the main Christian preachers for the past 1900 years) is that the Devil came before Jesus and set everything up to give Jesus (and his story) the ol’ screw-a-rew… Laughable. Absolutely laughable. That any person was tortured to death for not agreeing to this (and they were my friends) is detestable as well…
I’ve also been having some fun recently with a program called Stellarium, and following along with some other stuff I’ve read/heard recently, been exploring the idea of most of these deities (and the dates involving their birth (most around December 25th)) being based on astrological ideas. Just try this in Stellarium…
Place yourself in Cairo, Egypt… Set the year to whenever you’d like between 4000 BC and 1500 BC, set the day to sometime around December 25th… Turn constellations lines on, as well as star names… Go back before sunset on the 24th, then play it forward. Check out where Orion’s Belt (also known as the Three Kings) points down to when a line is drawn through it and Sirius (the brightest star in the East)… Now where does the sun rise that morning? (For those too lazy to do this (and it’s worth it, way cool to see in action) here is a site that has done this for you) This was a significant event for the Egyptians, and was when Ra “The Sun” was “born”… December 25th… The “sun” of God. It’s not simply a play on words, and it’s the best explanation I’ve read for the significance of this day to the ancients… Also notice that the Southern “Cross” rises right around the same location… Hmmmm…. I’m not saying this is the end all be all… It’s just kind of a weird “coincidence”, no? The astro-theological connections go much deeper than just this, but I’m tired right now, so find them yourselves… (12 apostles….12… hmmmm… That number has something to do with astrology, I’m almost sure of it…)
Anyways, with all this I’m simply trying to point out that we don’t know… To claim knowledge of “the Mind of God” and then point to a book just doesn’t work for me. We need to be able to explain the world around us, and right now science seems the best way to do that. Before people had deduced that the world was predictable, and that we could understand the laws governing it, they needed to know why things happened; religion may have served a great purpose in that… I’ve also heard it argued that religion is what brought the groups of early humans together, celebrations to “Gods” who had allowed the kill for the feast, or had allowed the crops to grow and flourish. These are important to our history, not our future.
My final note is this, why the “He”… A man? A fucking man? If a God exists, it would be so far beyond the conception of male/female, that it seems absurd to sexualize the fucking thing…
Anyways, this is a crazy old image of Jesus… Oh, wait, no that’s Dionysus/Osiris dated to around 300 BCE…
The Devil did it…
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4 Responses to “Monotheistic religions as dictatorships… Or LIGHT of the world…”
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I fail to see how that is remotely like a dictatorship. There are “rules” in this country, too, which if you disobey you will spend some time in jail. The only rule that you truly have to follow is to do good in this world. If you think that rule is harsh…
Let’s see, Mary is the most revered person besides Christ in the Catholic church. How exactly is that putting down women? I guess that the male authors of the new testament didn’t say much about women (with the exception of Luke, who had a few more things to say). I was referring to Mary Magdalene.
I actually did take a class on the history of the early Christian church. You are correct in saying that modern scholarship puts the writing of the gospels at 50 years or more after the death of Jesus. Most scholars also believe that Matthew, Mark, and Luke were writing from a common source. John is the only one who was potentially an apostle that came in contact with Jesus. Saying that “Mark didn’t write Mark” and “Luke didn’t write Luke” is kind of a moot point. Those are the names which the authors identified themselves as, whether or not those were their real names.
Interestingly, it is likely that John is really two authors, as there is a change in style in chapter 21. Many scholars believe that someone finished John’s gospel after John died.
None of this invalidates the writing. The purpose of the gospel writers was clearly not to write history, but to preach and reach out to various groups of people. Matthew is very clearly preaching to a Jewish audience, as he goes out of his way to make connections between Jesus and Moses. For instance, I believe Matthew is the only writer that mentions Jesus being sent off to Egypt. This would resonate strongly with a Jewish audience familiar with the story of Exodus. Did it really happen? Since none of the other gospel writers mention it, I suspect that it didn’t. Does it matter? Not really. The stuff that matters is confirmed by the other gospel writers and Mark faithfully conveys the message of Christ, even if he gets some of the details wrong.
I do, too.
It is true that we have no idea of the actual date of Jesus’ birth. December 25th was chosen to try to replace a pagan festival around the same date.
That’s interesting what you say about the constellations. I’ll have to poke around in Stellarium.
I agree. But Jesus referred to God as “Abba”. There is actually a Catholic church in Minneapolis called St. Joan of Arc which makes a regular practice of mixing up the references to He and She in their services.
I also agree that before the development of scientific materialism religion stood as a way to comprehend the natural world. There are people that still cling to it in that way, today, but that is not the teaching of the modern church. (My thoughts on the purpose of modern religion will have to wait, because I need to get to work.)
BTW, seeing as the cross was a widely used method of torture, it should not be surprising that its image should appear in other religions.
Wow, Draculaman sure has become more exciting than it was a year ago!
Blake, your perspective on religious and political topics is refreshing and engaging. It certainly makes things more interesting to have a discussion with varied viewpoints, and although John is being super contentious, I’m sure he’d agree with me. I hope that you keep arguing with us even if we act like total dicks.
It seems like (correct me if I’m misrepresenting your viewpoint) you don’t have much interest in defending some of the more archaic aspects of Christianity, but you see value in some of the lessons it teaches when applied to modern life. If that is the case, why use Christianity at all? Considering all of the baggage it brings, all of the mixed messages it sends (Jesus advocates violence on more than one occasion, and in more than one gospel), why not just abandon it completely and teach moral values based on a set of teachings that aren’t convoluted to the point of insanity?
Also consider, as John has pointed out, that every religion’s primary objective is to win more converts. Instilling values and explaining the world around us are secondary motives to bolstering the ranks and coffers of the priests/imams/dalai lama. Do you disagree with this argument?
In other words, I would be interested in hearing about the role you feel religion can serve in contemporary life and why we should use religion instead of, say, philosophy or science.
This is gonna have to be short for me too for the moment, but…
Christianity, to the best of my understanding, and I may be totally wrong, teaches that Jesus Christ is the way. You must accept him as the son of God in order to get into heaven. If you cannot, or will not, then you will go to hell for all eternity, right? I mean, right? I don’t think I’m taking shit out of context here, as I remember what I was taught in my Catholic sunday school lessons as a child. This is a drastic example, but can an abortion doctor, who is better than most other people in helping the poor, sick, and dying get into heaven? Really can he?
What I was referencing with regards to dictatorship is this definition: absolute, imperious, or overbearing power or control.
How does that not describe this Yahweh we are told exists and sees all, hears all, knows all? (that is what Stalin and Hitler told their “citizens”/prisoners (and I imagine they got some, if not most of their ideas FROM religion)) To the religious of the Yahweh bent, we live in a universe where every thought, of every moment, of every day is analyzed by (essentially) a video recorder in the sky, and we are judged on every moment of our life when we die. Is that helpful to stop the evil and maniacal among us? Perhaps, although I think Hitler and Stalin’s religious backgrounds assisted and informed them of how to scare the average person into submission. Yahweh slays and commands men to slay entire cities of men, women and children for no crime other than not worshiping him, bit harsh, well not really I suppose, but I digress…
Who determined what “good” in a religious sense is? Why is folding your hands and speaking words up to the sky good? Why is converting someone to your religious beliefs good? I know there is quite the spread and diversity to Christian “groups” now, but they do all have that Jesus thing in common, and they all tend to see the bible as something coming pretty close to the truth, at least what they want to take as the truth… (Yeah, let’s disregard the selling of your daughter, or not touching a pig’s skin… for now… but keep that bit about the dirty, evil homos…)
While I do take issue with the “He”, it’s not about making things better with a she/he thing… Do you honestly consider the being who made this universe to have something along the lines of “sexuality” or male/female that we can comprehend?
I’m just saying that that image looks a lot like the images of Jesus we see on the cross, the bent knees and all… Dionysus was born of a virgin, crucified and then was reborn… 500 years before Jesus. Why don’t you pray to him, or the Greek Gods in general? Seems kinda nutty, huh? No, I’m sorry I didn’t even convince myself there, but still…
Catholicism was how I was raised, and if I were raised in India, in the middle east, or wherever I would be rebelling (if I had been taught the same depth of critical thinking skills) against whatever the deity I was taught to worship as a child was…. You see all those other religious beliefs as false (and I hate to put words in you mouth, but I’m going out on a limb here), and I’m simply going one god/religion further…
I think if we as a species were suddenly placed in a life/death situation on this planet, the fact that a number of people would huddle up in churches/synagogues/mosques and just pray until our deaths is more than silly, it is downright evil… I don’t know what they should do, but praying isn’t going to help anything.. If Yahweh is Yahweh, this is all going to go the way it is going to go, and we don’t need to do shit about it…
This is a Sam Harris concept, but I like it… If a large, large chunk of the species were wiped out, and the rest were wiped clean of their memories (oh just work with me here) at what point in our species relearning the world and rules that govern the world around us would relearning that Jesus died on a cross for our sins be important?
That’s what I have time for now…
Oh, I’m having fun, so no worries.
You are right, Brendan, I am not going to defend the more archaic aspects of Christianity. My beliefs are not identical to the Catholic church’s; there are, in fact, many things that I disagree with. For people that don’t believe in God, I am perfectly satisfied with having them learn moral philosophy, so that they have a systematic method for answering moral questions (because, yes, morality does exist without religion). It just so happens that I believe in God. I pray because there are a lot of things in life that are completely out of my control, and my faith helps me through my more trying moments.
There have been times when I have considered converting because of the issues which upset me (particularly the church’s teachings on homosexuality, contraception, and celibacy w.r.t. priests). However, I have discovered a long tradition in the church of attempting to reconcile reason and faith. Perhaps you guys will find this quote from Pope Benedict interesting (full text):
I find this insistence that faith be subject to reason extremely compelling. This, perhaps more than anything else, is what keeps me in the Catholic Church.
Also, I don’t agree that every religion’s primary objective to win converts. That’s every *new* religion’s primary objective =). But seriously, the primary objective of most religions is akin to social revolution. It’s about love, equality, service, support. It is about making this world more like Heaven.
Now for John, though I think my answer to Brendan answers some of John’s comments, too…
Are you asking about official dogma? Because this is one of those places where my beliefs are a bit different. It is certainly the case that most Christians believe that Jesus is “the way, the truth, and the light”. In any case, I think the Catholic Church’s official position is that you must believe that Jesus was the Son of God. However, they also say that if you have not been fully educated on Jesus’ life and teachings and don’t believe in Him but are still a good person, then you can still get into Heaven.
Personally, I don’t really know what God’s criteria are. I take it as a given, though, that if I went through life caring only about myself I would not get in.
Well, no. However, if God were completely incomprehensible we would not be able to relate to God at all. Some kind of metaphor is needed, and our relationship with God is akin to our relationship with a mother or father (our small “c” creators).
You should be a bit more careful about what you assume about me. The more I learn about Judaism and Islam, the more I see just how similar they are to Christianity. One of my favorite speculative theories of religion is that God decided that not everyone thinks in the same way. Therefore, God created multiple religions to try to convince more people. I am being a bit facetious, but my point is that I am perfectly happy with the existence of multiple religions because I think that they are probably all differing perspectives of the same thing (once you throw out the extraneous crap).